There was more sporty airliner maneuvering on Friday as a Southwest flight ducked under a jet warbird during climb-out from Hollywood Burbank Airport in Southern California. The 737’s TCAS went off as the plane was climbing through 14,000 feet and the crew complied with a 500-foot dive to avoid a Hawker Hunter fighter passing through on its way to Point Mugu Air Force base where it was likely to be used as an adversarial aircraft for aerial combat training. Both planes continued their flights and the Southwest flight landed in Las Vegas Ann hour later. Details of the mishap are scant but it was the second conflict between an airliners and military aircraft in less than a week.
Late last week, a SkyWest regional jet turned sharply to avoid an Air Force B-52 in the pattern at Minot Airport in North Dakota. The civilian airport is about 13 miles from Minot Air Force Base, where the BUFF was likely based. Airline, Air Force and FAA officials have offered little detail on both incidents, which occurred as the NTSB continues its investigation of the catastrophic collision between an Army Black Hawk helicopter and an American Airlines regional jet last January. Last Tuesday, Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy told a crowd at EAA AirVenture that funding is in place to begin a wholesale overhaul of the air traffic control system.
Coincidently, this recent incident was in almost exactly the same location as another very similar in 1971. Hughes Air West 706, a DC9 was climbing out of LAX, NE bound and just out of 15,000’, when a VFR Marine F4 heading from the NW towards El Toro T-boned it and they both crashed. Within a few miles of the same spot and same altitude.
If the Southwest crew responded to a TCAS RA in a timely manner there would have been no need for “zero G” maneuvering to avoid a collision. Also climbing/descending in excess of 1500fpm in either aircraft will result in a nuisance RA that may not have been necessary to begin with. The other issue is was the “warbird” on an IFR clearance?
‘Some passengers hit the ceiling when the Southwest crew reacted to TCAS.’
Assuming this is not used as an idiom, and still climbing thru 14,000 feet, the seat belt sign was off?
Even if not, wear the belt when seated, people. Or bring along a helmet.
Now Russ, I read a fairly detailed report from the Air Force accounting for the activity of the B52. Maybe the crew of the airliner was not as vigilant as required. An IFR clearance does not relieve pilots from see and avoid in VMC.
I was contemplating the same thing. Under normal conditions a pilot has 20-30 seconds between TCAS warning and collision. That is forever in an aircraft. Perhaps the jet didn’t have TCAS and changed vertical direction when its pilot spotted the 737? I need more details before I can be critical of the pilots reaction, but at first glance it seems excessive.
TCAS maneuvers are supposed to be such that a FA in the back barely feels it.
Southwest pilots have been advised to consult the AVweb forum for the proper reaction to TCAS alerts and prior to executing evasive flight maneuvers to avoid any collision.
Thanks for your attention to this matter.
I’d like to see that report.
Thankyou.
Too much ignorance in this forum.
Amen. TCAS resolution warnings are usually less than 30 seconds, else high FAR (false alarm rate). According to Bendix Corp’s John Morrell’s “Physics of the Aircraft Collision Problem,” published a few week before the Grand Canyon collision in 1956, considering inertia and atmospheric factors, a minimum of 20 seconds at maximum Gs vertical maneuver is required for a 500-foot miss. Unbelted passengers are guaranteed death or serious injury. With GPS accuracy, ADS-B IN wins the passenger safety and comfort contest with 2-minutes and 40 NM conflict warning, updated every second. It was TSO’d over two decades ago!
Retired Southwest pilot here.
I assume the military aircraft didn’t have TCAS.
The way I remember the TCAS system is that both aircraft systems talk to each other and don’t need anything from ATC. Initially the SWA aircraft assumes the other aircraft has TCAS as well and both systems send the appropriate but different Resolution Advisory. Example would be have one aircraft climb and the other to descend.
I assume, once the SWA aircraft realizes the military aircraft doesn’t have TCAS it then changed its RA to a different instruction. Example would be from “INCREASE CLIMB to DESCEND, DESCEND NOW”
That would also explain why SWA had the negative G event.
When did Point Mugu NAS become an Air Force Base?
Where in any articles was it inferred that SW was complacent about the RA? As for “sporty” if I got an RA I would be “aggressive”. TCAS Training at airlines does not include “consider if the FAs are serving coffee & secure the cabin first”. An actual RA is a life/death maneuver. Get er done.
There’s no “realization” .. ie it knows from the outset whether the Hunter has TCAS or just mode C. The rest is physics. If one aircraft changes its rate of climb or descent TCAS may decide an alternative escape is better.
Most airlines, if turbulence isn’t a factor for example, turn off the belts at 10k feet… it corresponds to a decrease in the rate of climb as the aircraft accelerates.
“ Details of the mishap are scant but it was the second conflict between an airliners and military aircraft in less than a week.”
I don’t believe the Hawker was being operated by the military.
Lets keep it simple.
Collision Avoidance = Whatever It Takes. Fully within the scope, responsibility and consideration of the PIC.
As for passengers being unbuckled: Sad. Stay buckeled up. End of discussion.
As for cabin crew going flying: Risk associated with the job. Choose a different occupation if you can’t handle it.
Rather than questioning the pilots, we could ask why on gods orange planet, we have to have near misses in the alleged world safest airspace in the year 2025 after Jesus???
Fix it.
Likely operated by contractor for the military.
There are reasons why that aircraft model is used.
I presume the Hawker at least had mode C transponder, required in US airspace with some exceptions IIRC including speed and altitudes of operation.
Negative G, not 0